Forum 06/06/91 18:22:36 Carl/HOST: OK!!! Let's "cross the line of departure", time to go formal. | Tonight we are fortunate to have as our guest Marc Miller of... | Game Designers' Workshop. Marc has worked on Harpoon, | Megatraveller II, Twilight 2000, and many other GDW products. | He is here tonight to discuss PATRIOT, the eagarly awaited | land-based companion to Harpoon. Welcome to the War & | Strategy Section Marc! Any opening comments? GA Marc /Patriot: Hello all. Some of you I know; others I don't. But hello | to all. Patriot. We started the game by calling it Land Harpoon, which clearly describes what it is supposed to be, the land-based successor to Harpoon. I'll try to cover where we are and where we're going on Patriot. And then later we'll also talk about MegaTraveller 2, Twilight: 2000, and the CES. | So I'll start with Patriot. | Three-Sixty is the publisher and the concept originator. | Artech (in Ottawa) is the programming expertise. | GDW is responsible for the game design. | We three are working together to make this game the best in the | field. And I think we are working together better than most co-designers/developers do. Marc /Patriot: Specifically, Patriot is a gamer's simulation of modern | land warfare. We want to be able to represent the broad military actions than modern warfare, and still allow a player to reach down (meddle) as far as the company level. GA Carl/HOST: Great! Any one wanting to field a question send us a "?" You get one main question and then one follow-up question. GA John B | ? Howard | ? Andy | ? Carl/HOST: FT/Assoc. SysOp: ? Carl/HOST: Ok, be sure to type "..." for a fragmented sentence and "GA" | when you are finished. GA | First question from John, take it John. GA John B | Marc, Will Patriot have a universal database of equipment, one | that spans scenarios and campaighns? GA Marc /Patriot: The subject matter for the first Patriot game will be The | Gulf War. The data base for the first game will be sufficient to cover The Gulf War only. The data base will cover equipment (ie, vehicles, tanks, APCs, artillery, and etc). But it will also cover units (corps, divisions, brigades, battalions, and own to companies) with statistics and background. | Future battlesets will expand the data base. GA John B | Someone suggested that the database be composed of company | level units for the various countries and then allow the player to build their own force structures.GA Carl/HOST: Is that your follow-up John? John B | Yes. Carl/HOST: OK, any comment on the follow-up Marc? Marc /Patriot: The data base will consist of companies (which enables us | to define a company as composed of specific 'platoons' like M1A1 platoon, or M109A1 SP Artillery platoon). Ultimately, a scenario editor will enable players to build their own force structures. | I agree that one goal is to do just this just like Harpoon. GA Carl/HOST: That answers "Will there be a Scenario Editor". OK Howard, | you are up, ask away. GA Howard | Hi Marc. I notice that you're staying away from the traditional | WWIII hot-spot: East-West Europe. Have the changes there -- the | demise of the Warsaw Pact etc. made this an unattractive area for this type of game now? GA Marc /Patriot: Patriot is not a 'port' of an existing GDW game into | computer form. We started from scratch. However, existing GDW games have influenced us. And I expect that Battlefield: Europe will have a strong influence on the European Hotspot Patriot game. There is a strong demand for a WW III - like title in Patriot, and we plan that for the second battleset. GA Howard | A follow-up... Carl/HOST: Go for it Howard! Howard | Marc, do you plan any historical battlesets -- WWII, American | Civil War, Napoleanic Era, and so on? GA Marc /Patriot: Long-term, I think that the Patriot system will be | applicable to other eras. But we want to handle modern warfare first. And I would imagine that other eras we handle would be in the 20th century first. GA Carl/HOST: Ok, Andy is up. Go ahead Andrew! Andy | Mark, will PATRIOT, with the future scenario editor, enable | players to forge their own hypothetical alliances, or will we be limited to the program's set alliances ie. NATO Warsaw Pact? Marc /Patriot: To be of any use, I believe that the 'editor' must allow a | player to edit unit organizations as well as the situations which they will be fighting over. Marc /Patriot: And various sides have to be able to fight any other side. | So the answer is that there are no limits | like that. GA Carl/HOST: Follow-up? Andy | Yes! Carl/HOST: Go! Andy | Will any current info on the combating countries' military be | included with the program so that players that are less well informed about the the world's armies will be able to put together a fairly realistic scenario? ie. force levels etc...GA Marc /Patriot: Supporting hard-copy will guide players into the details | of the military and how it is used. And the supporting documentation for the scenario editor will give guidance on creating scenarios. But remember, the scenario editor is not in the original Patriot game. GA Andy | Marc, thanks! Carl/HOST: Ok, FT with a "Thoughtful" question. FT/Assoc. SysOp: Thanks, Carl! Marc, given that the latter half of the | 20th century has been taken up with neo-colonial and post- colonial struggle, is there any chance that history can be modeled in a future scenario for Patriot? Or is there just something about all that which is just not that strategically interesting from a military standpoint? GA Carl/HOST: That is "thoughtful"! Marc /Patriot: Do you mean, is Patriot a future history modeller? | A future tactics modeller? GA FT/Assoc. SysOp: Marc... yes! GA (making up for prior wordiness) Marc /Patriot: I envision Patriot (like Harpoon) as faithfully reflecting | the reality of modern warfare. GIGO, of course. But also, a well-crafted scenario would be resolved by the machine in a | realistic, even future-predicting, way.| Let me digress for a minute. In Patriot, it is possible for you to simply order all of Central Command into Kuwait, and it will then fight all of the 100-hour war in a realistic manner. At the same time, and during the scenario, the player can reach down and give specific orders to corps, divisions, even companies, but those orders are realistic orders consisting of an objective (or maybe an intermediate and final objective), and a timetable. There is no ordering individual tanks around, or driving them, or firing missiles. This is a strategic game modelled on the decisions | real commanders would make at the battalion and higher level. GA Carl/HOST: Follow-up FT? FT/Assoc. SysOp: Carl, yes. Marc, so in other words, the game will be | oriented primarily towards recreating already-existent databases derived from fought-and-won situations? I _do_ think it would be a real test of the design to allow "fantasy" or future mission edits as well. GA and Done. Marc /Patriot: The game models reality. It should be (and is being designed to) recreate real battles/wars, and to model hypothetical ones. GA Carl/HOST: Ok, my turn. Marc, will Patriot have provisions for | intelligence gathering (i.e. air, space, ground sensors)? Marc /Patriot: Patriot has a map which can be zoomed in or out. Units on | the map can be clicked on to see their composition, organization, and status (fatigue, morale, supply). The quality of the information available about enemy units on the map is a direct function of intelligence. For example, the enemy unit information on the map may be static for a while, and then 'satellite update' will flash in the corner and units will jump around as their true current information is then displayed.GA Carl/HOST: Great! How detailed will the close-air support role be? GA and done Marc | Close air support. There will be elements of it. At high enough | levels of command, the commander can ask for (or demand) close air support. And the system resolves its effects. But players won't be pinpointing what it does. They will be allocating it to units (like the 1st Division) which then make use of it. GA Carl/HOST: Sounds great, I hate having to get "Bingo" messages! | Let's que up for another round of questions and then we can | talk about Megatraveller and Twilight 2000. Howard | ? Randall | ? Andy | ? John B | ? FT/Assoc. SysOp: ? Carl/HOST: OK, Howard, fire away! Howard | I was wondering how realistic/detailed terrain will be. | In Kuwait it really wasn't a factor, but it would be in Europe, | Central/South America etc. GA Marc | Terrain has been derived from Defense Mapping Agency Tactical | Pilotage charts (1:500,000 resolution) and will be presented in SVGA. Maps are zoomable in and out. Up to several hundred miles on a side; down to about ten to 20 miles on a side. I believe that it will be dramatic and accurate and the TPCs are available for everywhere in the world. So we will get a consistant feel. GA Howard | Sounds great. One last thing: dare we ask when -- approximately Howard | PATRIOT might be in the stores? GA and out. Carl/HOST: As in "when". Marc | For Christmas. I had a full morning's meeting with Artech and | 360 at CES, and we are on track. GA Howard | I'm putting it on my X-mas list right now! Carl/HOST: Save your pennies kiddies! OK Randall is up, g'head | Randall. Randall | Marc, will PATRIOT include any naval units, e.g. landing ships | and carriers? GA Marc | Patriot will make provision for naval gunfore support, for | amphibious invasions/delivery of troops by sea, and conceivably for close air support from carrier based aircraft. Ships, per se, will not be shown. GA Randall | OK, done Carl/HOST: Andy, you got it , take it. Andy | Mark, Patriot is on my Xmas list too..my qustion is how | severely did you have to disable the AI to simulate SADDAM in the Desert Storm Scenario! . But seriously, do the Iraquis make better use of their resources in| PATRIOT? GA Marc | The AI provides direction to lower level units (to enable them | to find roads, attack other units, other wise act reasonably). | The Meta AI (which controls major strategies) is still under | development. GA Andy | What effect do logistics/supply level have on the combatants? | GA and Thanks Mark. sounds like a great game! Marc | Supply, fatigue, and morale all have an effect on how units | fight (and otherwise perform) in Patriot. Generally, lower levels degrade combat performance. The player gets visual clues (reports from the staff) when units start to lose capability. GA Carl/HOST: OK, Big John is up. John B | Marc, one of the peeves about Harpoon is that it's been play | balanced by artifical means, sensors and weapons that don't work or work too well. Will you be avoiding this in Patriot? Please! GA Marc | We are rating forces on a consistent, objective scale. | Theoretically, there is no need to skew any of that information. Different scenarios will provide play balance in the Gulf War. For example, difficulty can be set at diffferent levels by adjusting the pre-ground war days of bombing. Or play the | August scenario when only the 82nd Airborne is defending the frontier. GA Carl/HOST: Follow-up John? John B | Will we be able to adjust the AI so that "Saddam" fights like a | man? GA and thanks! Marc | Yes. GA John B | Great! Thanks. Carl/HOST: Some folks arrived late, anyone want to ask Marc a question? Jesse Montrose: ? Carl/HOST: Send a "?" John B | ? herc/Ass't SysOp: ? FT/Assoc. SysOp: ? Carl/HOST: Ok, Jesse, you get one question and one follow-up question. Go | ahead. Jesse Montrose: Marc, My most common complaint with strategy games is | that the AI becomes repetetive and predictable. Is that something that can be overcome? GA Marc | I distinguish between AI and meta-AI. The AI is the underlying | logic which lets units find roads (so they don't waste time travelling overland), and which attacks prime targets rather than ludicrous ones). In that sense, the AI should be predictable, it picks a good answer to a good question. | On the other hand, the meta-AI directs the overall strategy for | the operation. It will be based on four or more grand strategies with distinct sub-strategies. The system will select and adjust between the startegies, and should not become predictable or | repetitive, even when the same situation is refought. GA Carl/HOST: Jesse, a follow-up? GA Jesse Montrose: so the system will evaluate the current situation in | making it's decision on which grand strategy to use at any given time? and if a strategy is obviously not working, will it switch? | GA Marc | Yes. For example, the system will look for breaks in the line, | and vulnerabilities in enemy dispositions and exploit them when it can. And repeated failure of strategy will prompt a re-evaluation of the proper course. GA Jack | ? Carl/HOST: OK John, go for it. John B | Marc, will there be the opportunity to change forces in a | scenario, say incluude the Bundeswher in the Gulf, or Syrians in South Africa? GA Marc | The Scenario/Battleset Editor, once available, will allow | manipulation of the data. GA Carl/HOST: Follow-up John? (and Marc, will Scen Editor be a seperate | product?) Marc | The Scenario Editor will be a separate product. GA John B | Thanks, that should keep the "What-if'ers happy. I'm done Carl. Carl/HOST: OK. Herc, you got it. Ask away. herc/Ass't SysOp: Thanks Carl. Marc, you mentioned earlier that Patriot | will feature a zoomable terrain map in SVGA. Is that Super VGA? If so, can you tell us what resolution that is? Such as 640x400 x256? GA Marc | I have to go by what they tell me on specifications. It is 256 | color. GA Carl/HOST: Follow-up Herc? herc/Ass't SysOp: Ok. The reason I'm interested is because it will be a | first in PC games if indeed it's presented in SVGA. I don't think there is another SVGA game in the PC market at the moment. GA and DONE. Marc | And 360 is making great hay out of that fact! GA herc/Ass't SysOp: Wow, that is some news! Fleeting Thought: (nice to see confirmation!) Carl/HOST: Sounds like this is going to be GREAT!! FT, another | "thoughtful" question, go for it! Fleeting Thought: Carl, well, I'll try. Marc, first let me say it's | been a pleasure and a privilege to have you here with us tonight. Could you expand on how supply and logistics will be handled in PATRIOT? I always have loved the way it was done in FIRE BRIGADE, and am curious what you all are up to. GA Marc | Supply and logistics is, like many other things in Patriot, | transparent to the user. The general in charge does not concern himself with how or where supply is supplied. Instead, units which outrun their supply lines become unsupplied and thus less effective in combat and movement. When real problems occur the general (the player) has to address them by channelling supplies or redirecting units. But it is 'management by exception' in force here. GA Carl/HOST: FT, follow-up time. Fleeting Thought: So under rare circumstances the player will be able to | channel supplies, say, by air-support? GA and Done. Marc | Yes. But remember, the ideal is to plan ahead by | pre-positioning them, or whatever. GA Andy | ? Fleeting Thought: (good point) Carl/HOST: Good stuff! Jack, you have the next question. GA Jack | Marc, what's the recommended machine (IBM particularly) for | this game? GA Marc | Good question. Minimum 286. Hard drive. Recommended 386. I just | ordered a 386 DX-20 primarily to play this game. GA Jack | How will you determine when a unit is out of supply? GA Marc | The system monitors and traces appropriate supply lines and | time since last supply. It notes and degrades units accordingly. You can look up status for individual units. If status gets bad, a staff assistant says something. GA Jack | done, ga Carl/HOST: OK, Marc did you want to discuss other things? Marc | Sure. ... Carl/HOST: Take it away, how 'bout Twilight 2000? Marc | First CES and the market. One point of discussion at CES was a | recent (CGW?) survey in which they asked what players want more | more graphics or more game play. The purported answer was more | graphics. Well, I think a game without good game play is ludicrous. In extremis, such a game is a computer movie, and I want a game. But our goal is to make Patriot the successor to Harpoon, and to do that it will need good graphics and good game play. We plan to achieve that. I bet we don't have enough time to cover other titles like MagTraveller 2 and Twilight: 2000. So | lets do another round of questions. GA Carl/HOST: Obviously they were not wargamers! Good metaphor with the | "movie". Fleeting Thought: ? Jack | ? Andy | Andy? Carl/HOST: OK, FT, ask (and it can be about anything!) Fleeting Thought: Carl, thanks! Marc, just wanted to say Mega 2 looked | _great_ -- massively improved design interface. Any comments on the new combat system, if you feel willing to talk about it? GA | (is it realtime?) Marc | MegaTraveller 2. 117 detailed Traveller worlds. Each with a | full 500,000 square miles of detailed world surface. Cities. 200+ non-player characters. And the PAL system. In effect, you are just one character, but the other 4 are your pals and they will often volunteer to do a task that they can do better than you. And yes, combat is easier, more effective, and (I feel) more realistic. People will enjoy using it. I especially like the mouse interface. GA Fleeting Thought: Great! It was one of my favorite things at CES. Thanks | and Done. Carl/HOST: OK, Jack is up. GA Jack | Marc, can you typify in layman's terms the AI method used in | Patriot? ga Marc | No. I have pored over the software specifications, but I don't | cut the code. What happens is that GDW decides what we want to happen, and Artech makes it work. Then we test it and tune it. GA Jack | OK, done. ga Carl/HOST: Andy was next but had to go. Marc is there anything else you | would like to discuss, we are running late on the East coast. | GA Marc | Yes. Keep mentioning Patriot to your local computer software | store. You know... ask if they know anything about it. When its coming. Whatever. The more they are forced to think about it, the more they will expect and stock it. Now I know that you 'all will buy it anyway, but we need to put it in front of the masses. 360 is doing this project up right. They have Game Designers designing the game, and Computer Programmers programming it. The result is going to be exceptional. | Done. Carl/HOST: Some of us are planning on camping outside the store waiting for it! Fleeting Thought: (yep!) Marc | Frankly, I would if I had to, too. Carl/HOST: Marc, Thanks so much for joining us here tonight. I know that | another conference with you is in order, will you come back and do it again? GA Marc | I'd love to. Let's make arrangements. Thanks to everyone for | your attention. Good night. Carl/HOST: Great, we'll set it up. Fleeting Thought: Thanks, Marc! Best of luck! Carl/HOST: One other thing... herc/Ass't SysOp: Thanks for coming tonight, Marc. Enjoyed it. Carl/HOST: We have started a message thread on PATRIOT and you are | welcome to addto it, I have been trying my best to save all of it in a text file for you. GA Marc | Thanks. I'll try to round up some of my materials on Patriot to | contribute to the thread as well. Carl/HOST: Great! herc/Ass't SysOp: Thanks again, Marc and Carl, I'm outta here. Carl/HOST: Good Night everyone, thanks for coming tonight | The Conference is completed! herc/Ass't SysOp: Good job Carl. Later. Fleeting Thought: Marc... _do_ come back and discuss Twilight 2000 and | Mega 2. Thank _you_ Carl, for hosting!